In Conversation with Gaia Vince
Rethinking Migration in the Age of Climate Crisis
Julia: Your book Nomad Century has been a huge inspiration to the Climate Migration Collaborative. The way that you take a long historical look at patterns of migration and highlight the ways in which people have always moved feels like a very helpful counterpoint to the anti-migration narratives that dominate in many countries today. But I’m wondering, how can we speak up loudly and clearly about the scale of the challenges ahead - and convey the urgency to act that is needed - without the type of alarmism that would play into anti-migrant sentiment and lead to ever greater securitising of our borders?
Gaia: This challenge is real, both in the context of climate change and migration. Alarmism can backfire, as catastrophizing can drive people away from action and feed negative sentiment. But at the same time, I also think we have to be totally honest about the scale of the challenge. You know, we’re in 2024 now and we're seeing major disasters frequently, even in places that haven’t really seen such extreme weather events in the past – from Europe, where Italy and Spain have seen cars bobbing in floodwaters, to the United States, which is in many ways becoming a climate catastrophe zone. That’s the world’s richest country. People are moving, and its directly because of climate change, but also, of course, climate change feeds into so many other things, it’s not just about people fleeing disasters. Climate change exacerbates conflict, and makes people much more vulnerable to extremist messaging, especially when governments struggle to provide basic needs, it really impacts everything from food security to political stability. You see this in many places around the world right now, Sudan, Somalia, there are many other examples.
So it’s not about not worrying people about the scale of it, it’s more that message needs to be different. Human movement in and of itself is not something to fear. What’s needed is preparation and management so that it doesn’t become a crisis. We need to deliver a very different narrative to the populist one that has been on the rise. We need to stress that migration is normal. But it is going up. The numbers are going up. They’re only going to increase. And we can’t hide, pretend that’s not happening. We have to deal with it in a way that is much more positive, and that’s about narrative. It’s about having different types of conversation. And when it doesn't work, it's not that it’s not working because of the types of people that are coming, or because of where they're coming from, or even the numbers. Really, it's due to poor planning and policymaking. In the UK, we're a really rich nation. We shouldn't have homelessness. We shouldn't have people using food banks. These are policy failures, and they're not the result of immigration. And yet, of course, that's weaponised against people who migrate.
Julia: You present some deeply hopeful and pragmatic solutions to migration driven by climate change, but you also recognise that some people are better resourced to adapt, migrate or otherwise thrive in their current homes than others. Some have more agency and choice than others, and indeed those with least agency are often the least responsible for the effects of climate change that they are now living with. How might this inequity impact the types of welcome that we need to imagine in countries that can expect to receive new arrivals in the decades ahead?Â
Gaia: Yes, these inequities exist both globally and locally. In any country, it’s often the poorest who bear the worst impacts of climate change. Its the people whose classrooms, hospitals and workplaces are over-heated, unbearably hot, for example, or they're living in overcrowded conditions and least able to cope with the impacts of climate change, and they are generally the lowest paid too. And it’s very often the case that people who have contributed the least to climate change face the harshest consequences.
First of all, we have the ability to help people who want to stay through adaptation. Migration isn’t a bad thing but forced migration is obviously a tragedy, and we should do everything that we can to avoid that. But there will be places within our own country as well as everywhere else, where we have to abandon. You know, it's just not possible to shore things up everywhere. We're already seeing extreme conditions in 2024. So by 2040, 2060, these are going to be much more pressing, and we can't afford to rebuild everywhere.
So in terms of helping people move with agency, we must find ways to ensure that everyone, not just the well-resourced, have the opportunity to move with dignity.
One way to foster this is to focus on a particular demographic—people in their late teens to mid-thirties, an age when migration is already a natural life step for reasons like education, work, or family. We could develop programs that provide education or employment opportunities in safe locations for young people in vulnerable areas, allowing them to establish new networks. This creates a foundation for others in their communities to join later in a more fluid, less disruptive way. It also supports back-and-forth movement, where these individuals can remain connected to their origins and support family members back home while building stability in new places. Ukrainian migrants were able to lean on the Ukrainian diaspora in Europe to a certain extent, and this made things easier and allowed for a smoother transition.
But this fluid movement is not really that well understood by the general public, who are made to feel that there is this onerous burden of people flowing into the country that we need to be afraid of. But this fluidity is how migration actually occurs, seasonally, with community gradually building in safer regions or countries, and people building knowledge of how things work in new places. You start to be able to get information back and forth about what’s happening, and you get more agency essentially over what’s going on.
We should lean into this fluidity much more, make it much easier, because our economies need seasonal migration, from agriculture to tourism and hospitality. What we need to do is make sure that we don't go down the route of exploitation, and which is what's happened to workers in places like the Middle East and Malaysia, where a lot of it is actually climate migration, because things have become impossible where they are. But now they’re being hugely exploited in these situations. This needs to be much better understood and better regulated and we need to learn from this.
Julia: Coming to the heart of the Climate Migration Collaborative’s enquiry, we know the challenge is systemic, requiring partnerships that bridge sectors and foster cross-disciplinary conversations. It's a whole-of-society approach that will need new collaborations to test new ideas, and that will require organisations to reach beyond their day-to-day remits to cultivate new connections and narratives that drive change. Based on everything you’ve learnt from your research in this space, how might we do the work of catalysing collaboration across sectors to build a welcoming and just society?
Gaia: There’s no question that cross-sector collaboration is essential. While many organizations already do important work in this area, they tend to work within their own sectors, creating duplication and inefficiencies. Local governance could play a major role here, and I believe city mayors especially could lead efforts to integrate these sectors. City leaders have a deep understanding of migration’s impact; after all, cities are built on migration, both internally and from other countries. In cities, local government can create efficiencies and coordinate resources across various agencies, so support is comprehensive. City leaders who understand the economic and social value of migration can advocate effectively for these collaborative, cross-sector efforts, enabling communities to thrive as they grow and change.
And, you know, if you if you look at the number of refugees around the world it comes to, I think, the population of Japan. And of course, they’re not citizens of a country in the same way but they are a substantial group in most countries and they should have advocates, there should be an MP representing the rights and interests of refugees. At the moment, various little organizations are trying to fill the gaps, and that's a very inefficient way of doing it, and it could be so much better. We need to look across whole systems and work out who needs to be collaborating with who to get things moving.
Julia: You mention city mayors as critical players in shaping migration policy. We’re sitting discussing this in the UK where we’ve been living for more than a decade with a very hostile environment for migrants and we know that far-right parties are gaining momentum across Europe. What might give us cause for optimism, since you published Nomad Century in 2022? Are there particular places where you see hopeful examples of pro-migration policies, even if they’re driven more by pragmatism than justice?
Gaia: It’s kind of dark times, isn’t it? But it’s true—city mayors tend to understand migration on a practical level, They’re generally more pragmatic and often lead the way in embracing the benefits of migration. Its noticeable that Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, for instance, has been pro-immigration, has championed anti-racist initiatives and has reached out to other cities around the world to strengthen links in a way that was not happening before.
Some countries are also taking innovative steps. Canada, for instance, has built its immigration policy around the benefits newcomers bring to the economy, even though it’s a pragmatic approach rather than purely humanitarian. And Spain’s current leader has taken a public stance to support immigration and change border policies, despite facing strong political opposition. It’s encouraging to see, especially when centrist parties in Europe often avoid these issues for fear of backlash.
But we’ve got to be honest. Migration will increase, it will come in different waves according to conflict and according to how well resourced people are to adapt to their changing environments and what that means for their livelihoods. But we know it is happening. So how do we make it work for our cities and our countries? And that’s really where the debate should be. Is it better to, you know, build new housing in cities where there are already lots of immigrants? Or is it better to develop entirely new cities where the most of the population is white? It should be about that sort of policy choice and the pros and cons of these choices. Not about what the minimum or maximum number of immigrants that we’re going to have each year should be. That’s ridiculous. Â
Actually, wouldn't it be nice to have a visionary leader who was capable of standing up and saying honestly, look, you know, immigration is happening. Actually, it's got lots and lots of benefits. Actually, our health services are run entirely by immigrants. This is what we need, but it's not going to work if we don't invest in housing, or transport, or social infrastructure. So you know, in order to reap the benefits as a society we need to do this right. And the same with climate change. You know we are decarbonizing, whether you like it or not, and most people are fine with it. So let’s have some bravery and let’s be honest.
Julia: How about smaller-scale initiatives that are demonstrating and pioneering new pathways that create win-win solutions at this intersection of climate change and migration, often by thinking outside of their own siloes? Where should we be looking for inspiration as we build connections across sectors to fundamentally reimagine where and how we live in the years to come?
Gaia: I think you will know about this more than me, but there are so many brilliant, brilliant organizations that feel very isolated and feel that they're working completely alone. And that's crazy because they're doing great work. But that work can be maximized and optimized by being more connected to wider networks. And at a global scale, I’m noticing the International Organisation for Migration being more proactive on this whole subject.
We need to start seeing this as an opportunity to actually rethink everything – that means bringing different organisations and sectors together – actually in the UK we’re going to have to re-make a lot of our infrastructure in our cities to be resilient for a different climate. And while we're doing that, we can also bear in mind changing demographics. We’re looking at a population which should be declining massively based on birth rates, but will actually be growing because of immigration.
If we plan and adapt properly, you know, rather than sort of pretend it's not happening, we can do it in a way that benefits everyone. We need to build that honest pragmatism into all of it.
Julia: On that galvanising note, we are going to wrap up but I know the conversations it will spark are just beginning. Thank you so much for your time and insights, Gaia.
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Thank you for this.
The idea of seeding young people into new areas, climate migrant sellers of new spaces, is such a hopeful one. That landed. X